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Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
602
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 18:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
I would have thought this terrible idea was shot down sufficiently enough by now, but I guess not. Are you guys really that worried about re-election? "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
602
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 19:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
Two step wrote:The names of *all* of the sessions came from CCP Xhagen, and he was the one that requested this session. It is perfectly permissible for the changes to be no changes at all, but we do need to discuss it.
Ahh, sounds good, removed my last part then as it's irrelevant :)
I'll get it started, then.
Truthfully I'm not even sure there IS a problem. It's kind of strange to me that this CSM had the issue kickstarted, when it's probably one of the more diverse ones in history. I can't think of a single area of gameplay that isn't represented by at least one council member, save maybe Incursions. Hell, there was even one wormhole candidate whose name I can't recall for some reason who came in 2nd overall in voting, with a fairly comfortable lead over every voting bloc but one! Issler Dainze is also proof positive that even tiny candidates have a chance, and Darius III is proof that the barrier for entry to the council is so small, it's barely a raised curb. Without a few more CSM election's worth of data since CCP decided to actually listen to the CSM in the past few councils, it's really a stretch to say if there's a problem at all.
The only way I could see a problem is if CCP has some kind of survey data or somesuch that says new players aren't voting because of the voting system. I have my doubts about that as well, since they'd have just changed it on their own, and rightly so since their data on the subject would best allow them to tailor the changes to the specified problem. Crowdsourcing it gives me the impression that no such data exists (in that it wasn't ever collected, not that it says different).
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
604
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 04:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
Serpentine Logic wrote:I like Trebor's scheme, being functionally similar to the way the Senate is elected in oz.
Trebor's system was an embarassment. Not only did it completely disenfranchise certain voters, it would have created an environment that would essentially encourage large voting blocs to run multiple candidates, which leaves even fewer seats for smaller candidates. It was myopic garbage through-and-through. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
604
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 08:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
Serpentine Logic wrote:Do you have a link to further explanations of your points?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1896048#post1896048 (Posts 11 through 14) https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1896161#post1896161
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1896196#post1896196
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1896248#post1896248
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1896387#post1896387
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1896418#post1896418
Those are some of the better quick posts in the massive thread that point out the pretty severe flaws in his system. I linked the posts specifically as the thread degenerated into an utter **** heap after about 10 pages due to a bad combination of angry players and a CSM responding rather poorly to it all (sorry if any CSM takes this personally, but I'm being far more diplomatic about it than I could be).
If you really wanted to talk more specifics of Trebor's system, I would really suggest taking it to that thread, though. It's been discussed ad nauseam already, and there's no need to destroy yet another thread over it. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
631
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 08:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
Anna Shoul wrote:There is a problem with CSM not being very representative of Eve population, completely missing out on many known categories of players, that much is obvious.
Name three. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
631
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 10:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:And before you say it, have you seen anyone champion Mission running? So many people do it and it is suicidally boring, It needs a major fix and has barely ever had any resources spent on it.
Issler was supposed to. Maybe bug her about it? Or Kelduum for that matter - no way a guy running a highsec corp as big as his doesn't have mission runners.
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
640
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 23:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:As to the candidates maybe you can show me a post were anyone in the peramble to the last election was going out for missions..
I'm not going to bother digging out Issler's candidacy post (I have the feeling you're having one of those convenient blank spots, considering you were practically stumping for her), but she was going to be the champion for high sec bears - "hear the bears roar", and all of that. Mining and Missions were two prominently mentioned categories.
Again, the problem is not one of actual representation, it's of poor representation. You can't make the system compensate for poor representation. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
641
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 03:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
Hrald wrote:Some countries reserve a certain number of seats in their legislature for those who would otherwise never gain a voice. Could something similar be rigged up for the CSM? A dedicated WH seat and a dedicated Highsec seat?
This comes up all the time, and the answer is that the seats would be gamed far too easily with alts as how could you truly tell if someone is actually from a WH, or FW, or what have you. It also doesn't touch where someone who truly does live in several areas should go. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
644
|
Posted - 2012.12.02 12:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
Kintaro Kinoshito wrote:One person one vote. Open registration 8 weeks before election. Proof of I.D. and address or some other verification process.
Then we should really get an idea of the realistic numbers who actually vote.
This last election had just over 59,000 votes across over 20 nations. How would they even determine what an acceptable piece of ID is, let alone identify whether or not it's authentic? "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
657
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 03:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Opaque Intent wrote:How many people are motivated to vote is completely orthogonal to the actual issue, which is how the ballot works and how the votes are counted.
Let's keep on topic guise.
See, that's the problem with this topic. Nobody can even agree what the actual issue IS, i.e. why does the system need to be changed, what are the failings of it, and how would any new system address them. That's the important part of any voting discussion, and starting the discussion at "what new system will we use" skips that step entirely. It's why pretty much every topic on the subject turns to **** so quickly - I'm honestly extremely disappointed that this is even a Summit topic, especially given the CSM's initial attempt at this topic started with a system that set out to deliberately disenfranchise a single large voting bloc. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
658
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 07:54:00 -
[11] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Like it or not more people need to be educated to vote as well as possibly rewarded.
So the CSM does not just stay a minority lobby group but becomes a representative body of the whole of EvE.
I'm going to ignore the minority group catchphrase.
This is exactly what I mean, Frying Doom - you're advocating player education. That is a Good Thing, but it's not a change in the voting system. The fact that you go there first (and generally have in past threads) is essentially agreeing with me; you're saying that there's bigger things to discuss before we start tinkering with a voting system. That Opaque Intent post was telling us that talking about such things was "off topic", and that's what I took issue with. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
658
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 20:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
Megarom wrote:Sidenote: I don't know how Goons have managed to miss the fact that the current system wasted majority of Mittani's votes even without the incident. If they really were as organized as some people seem to belive they should have praised the proposed solution and in the same sentence point out the fact that overvotes not transferring does not fit that stated goal.
You see how when results are announced they actually tell you the number of people that voted for a person? Notice how Mittens' totals were more than double 2nd place? Hint: that matters. You think The CSM's Trebor's system would have gone out of its way to "reduce" our voting power and use us as a "worst case scenario" example had that not happened? "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
658
|
Posted - 2012.12.09 01:11:00 -
[13] - Quote
Megarom wrote:I would agree with "was intentionally unfavorable to to us (overvoting)". Still instead of reacting with "NOOOOO you are being mean to us " +(tinfoil) you could have run with "Vote transferring is a good way to make the system better but let's make this little change so that it is a)fair b) eliminates the need for tactical voting completely and not just in one end of the voting distribution.
Oh it started that way. After being told twice that we were "invading" the thread with "tinfoil" by pointing out said problems by the 2nd page, it was pretty clear that they just wanted us to do exactly that - point it out once and go away so the criticism would stay buried. That didn't play, to say the least.
Besides, it wasn't just some unintended side effect - it was a stated design goal of his system, and his own custom modifications to an existing system accomplished them. It's not tinfoil to point out that his system was designed to devalue the votes of one specific group (whether it was us or not is immaterial, doing this to any group of players is unconscionable).
Megarom wrote:Proper STV and the fixed Trebor system would actually maintain the ability to send a message by overvoting, but it would also not make those votes to go to waste.
Even if those vote totals were kept for record (and no part of his proposal suggested this was the case), it's irrelevant as it created a system where the votes of others literally had more values than ours. That's completely unacceptable (and quite frankly insulting that he thought we'd be too stupid to notice or that the remaining CSM members thought we'd just drop the issue because they used the words "invade" or "tinfoil"). "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
659
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 10:42:00 -
[14] - Quote
Megarom wrote:The thread is easily available for everyone to read and after just checking the first page I don't think objective facts support your view.
But as bad Goon PR strategy was I will be there to whine with you if changes that have as obvious flaws as the Trebor's plan had are proposed after the summit.
You missed what I meant, I meant they wanted us to shut up and move on, so that the criticisms would have remained on the first 2 pages and been ignored and dismissed as tinfoil and (in their hopes, at least) buried by what I'm sure they hoped would have been friendly criticism-free "discussion".
As for where I got this conclusion from...
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1896135#post1896135
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:Goons would probably be better served engaging in that discussion rather than inventing things to tinfoil hat about.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1896207#post1896207
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Despite the hilarity of the Goons instantly invading the thread assuming that this is all somehow directed at them,
..
If you note the title of the thread, it is a call for discussion. You know, where you bring ideas and share them and discuss their merits. I hope we can all keep this in mind before we continue down the rabbit hole of stupidity that is either "You just want to suppress Goon influence" or "you just want to make sure you all get re-elected".
That was in the first 2 pages of the thread. By that point, the major problem with Trebor's proposal had been laid bare. Notice how neither of them even acknowledge the problem that's been explained more than a few times by that point? They're in an awful hurry to marginalize what we were saying, though (the irony of trying to marginalize the opinions of people who have a problem with a voting system that marginalizes their votes all while telling them they're not being marginalized is hilarious, btw).
A fun footnote to that thread: no CSM even acknowledged their actual opinion of Trebor's system until the next day in a different thread despite being asked repeatedly to provide it. Alekseyev did stick around to troll the **** out of everyone through, trooper he is.
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
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